ROTC of Tomorrow: How DEI and Civilian-Inspired US Army Talent Management Create Change and Opportunity for CCNY Cadets

Episode Transcript

Vince Boudreau00:15

Welcome to From City to the World, I'm your host Vince Boudreau, the President of the City College of New York. From City to the World is a show about how the work we're doing here at CCNY matters to people across the city and throughout the world. So, we'll be discussing the practical application of our research and solving real-world issues like poverty and homelessness, mental health challenges, affordable housing, and a whole range of other questions. Today's show is a special show because we're going to be discussing the Army ROTC program as a career path to young people, both the way it operates today and how it operated in the past.

It has long and deep roots at CCNY. In fact, in front of the main building on campus is the statue of General Webb, military man who was the second president of CCNY. But today Army ROTC provides college students with the skills and the leadership training to become an officer in the United States active Army in the Army reserve and the Army National Guard. Cadets would develop maturity, responsibility, leadership ability, self-confidence, and a whole range of other qualities that are necessary to success in the military but also in any field.

The program stresses are written and oral communication, physical training, first aid, land navigation, ethics, and of course, all of the technical skills that are necessary for a modern military. Once they successfully complete the ROTC program, cadets receive commissions as Second Lieutenants in one of the Army's specialized branches. So, my guest on the first half of the show is Lieutenant Colonel LaShell Davis. She's been the Professor of Military Science for the City University of New York Reserve Officer Training Corps program since July 2021. On the second half of the show, we will bring in my good friend, Lieutenant General, Samuel Ebbesen.

General Ebbesen is a City College alum who enrolled in the ROTC program and received his military commission as a Second Lieutenant when he graduated in 1961. But first, before we have general Ebbesen on, let me tell you a little bit about Lieutenant Colonel LaShell Davis. Prior to her current assignment, she served as secretary to the Joint Staff Executive Officer for the Commanding General; Equal Opportunity Leader and People-First Coordinator Joint Task Force; Civil Support NORTHCOM, Joint Base Langley, Eustis, Virginia.

Lieutenant Colonel Davis enlisted in the United States Army in September 1991 as a signal support specialist for 11 years enlisted career includes assignments with 25 Infantry Division, First Infantry Division, and the Army National Guard. Lieutenant Colonel Davis was commissioned to the Army National Guard’s Officer Candidate School as a transportation core officer in June 2002. She served and deployed in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom as a platoon leader from 2003 to 2004 and as a company commander of the 227th Quartermaster Company from 2011 to 2012. After completing command, she was assigned to BDES three plans and deployed in supportive Operation Enduring Freedom from 2013 to 2014.

She has numerous awards and decorations, and these include the Bronze Star Medal, the Defense Meritorious Service Medal and the Meritorious Service Medal. Colonel Davis holds an associate in Liberal Arts from Leeward Community College, a Bachelor of Science and Social Work from Pacific Lutheran University, a Master of Arts in Social Work from Fayetteville State University and a Master of Arts in Military Science from Command and General Staff College. She's currently pursuing her Doctor of Education, that's an EDD in Christian Leadership at Liberty University.

Colonel Davis is married to First Sergeant, he's retired, Derek Davis of Albemarle North Carolina. They've been married for 26 years, have four children and these are Derek Davis Jr., Asia Davis, Tiffany Hayes, and Major Timothy Peters, who is also serving in the US Army. Lieutenant Colonel Davis, welcome to From City to the World. So, let me first ask you, you've served all these different positions, both in the United States and abroad, what does it mean to you now to be working on a college campus? What's that like for you?

Lieutenant Colonel Davis04:56

It's been an extraordinary opportunity for me. It's always been lifelong goal for me to teach ROTC. And so I did apply when I got accepted to be a professor of military science. I was very elated because I'm a lifelong learner. As you read from my bio, I'm always seeking some type of next education challenge for myself. So being able to kind of put that into other students that not only while becoming an officer, you can also enhance your military or your civilian career in general. So, it's been a great opportunity, Sir.

Vince Boudreau05:37

Is it different working with young people on a college campus who maybe see themselves first as college students and second as ROTC participants, as opposed to working, maybe with soldiers who have enlisted in the military and are already active members of the military?

Lieutenant Colonel Davis05:58

That's kind of a yes, no question. It is but when you come into this job you know you're not dealing with that same population, so you have to kind of do a paradigm shift within yourself to understand at the end of the day, you're working with civilians, that's what the students are. Until they commission, they are civilians and you have to keep that mindset. You're not dealing with somebody who's been to combat a gazillion times or has done that active-duty thing for the most part. And so, you have to treat it as such and come into the job realizing that it's not the same type of environment and in order to be successful, you have to accept that.

Vince Boudreau06:39

Are there things that you look for as a young man or young woman go through the program that give you an idea that they're getting it, they're understanding what is being asked of them, their thoughts about themselves or their expectations of themselves are starting to evolve?

Lieutenant Colonel Davis07:01

Yes. And for us, all our cadets are different. They bring something different to the table. And so knowing that as a leader, you kind of hone in onto what that one thing is and once you build upon that, other traits, other things come out and at the end of the day, the goal is to kind of build them up to let them know, because some people come in here not having prior service, either guard or reserve or active duty and so they really don't think they can do this, or this is for them. And you just kind of giving them little nuggets to build them up to let them know you can do this and it is achievable.

Vince Boudreau07:41

As you know, we talked about this earlier today. We did not have an ROTC program on this campus from the later months of the Vietnam war until pretty recently. 2012, 2013 were the years when we were reintroducing ROTC to City College. And I know at the time that there were people on this campus and also in the military that were really excited specifically about City College as a host for a new ROTC program. Are there reasons why CCNY is a particular or an unusual or maybe an appropriate site in this moment in time for an ROTC program?

Lieutenant Colonel Davis08:26

Yes. So, I don't know how much you follow the news, but the Army has really been vested into diversity, equity and inclusion. And when you step on a CCNY campus or CUNY campus in general, you get that DE&I, diversity, equity, inclusion. And I think it's important for the Army to have programs that encompass people from all areas of the world, different languages, to kind of bring together that philosophy of diversity, equity and inclusion. And so that's where I see CCNY, CUNY in general fits in into helping the Army get after that overall mission of promoting diversity, equity and inclusion.

Vince Boudreau09:15

When we talked earlier today, you mentioned that people don't know this, that your cadets don't just come from the United States, they actually come from all over the world and will be eligible for service in the US military. Can you talk a little bit about that aspect of diversity on this campus?

Lieutenant Colonel Davis09:36

So, I'll speak for my seniors. They'll graduate on June 3rd and then they'll commission on June 7th. And we have 16 of them and out of the 16, nine of them are from other countries. And when I say other countries like weren't born in the US, families migrated here for better opportunity. I have cadets from Dominican Republic, Greece, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Korea, and there's just a plethora of countries where our cadets come from. And last count, about 80 to 85% of the program was diverse. And like I said, when I say diverse, I'm talking other countries, other nationalities, other races, people that I don't identify as being born or from America, but now they are, because they've gotten that citizenship so they can serve in the military.

Vince Boudreau10:30

And there are other ways that for instance, a City College or CUNY, I guess, because, well let's actually start with that question. We are the host campus for the ROTC program, but it's a bigger program than that. And can you just kind of talk to us a little bit about the structure of the program, what's the relationship between this campus and CUNY and maybe the larger ROTC structure?

Lieutenant Colonel Davis10:55

So, we have 25 schools that we're responsible for with the CUNY ROTC program. And with like you said, CCNY being the host and then York College also offers military science courses as well. So, when students enroll, they can either enroll at CCNY or York College. And currently, we have students from 13 out of the 25 schools with about one fourth coming from CCNY, one fourth coming from John Jay, and then the rest coming from the other campuses throughout the CUNY system.

Vince Boudreau11:31

Is there anything that kind of marks our ROTC students as different as compared to maybe other students in different programs?

Lieutenant Colonel Davis11:42

From what I've seen thus far, like I said, the diversity itself is a big deal. And then also a lot of the cadets in our program, they work full-time jobs. Some of them work two full-time jobs and so they just bring a different situation than some of your other programs may deal with or have to deal with. Our students don't live on campus, they live in homes with second, third, some of them fourth generations of family members and they're just out there grinding, trying to get a degree and also become officers in this great country. So, I mean, I just think that separates them, just the sacrifice they make every day. We do PT from seven to eight on Tuesday, Thursdays and Fridays. They're on the train systems, 5:30 in the morning to get here, because like I said, a lot of them don't live on campus. So, they're commuting in from all over the five boroughs to get here, to meet that goal of not only getting their degree, but like I said, commissioning in the United States Army as an officer.

Vince Boudreau12:48

You could imagine on the one hand, people think, well that's a distraction from the focus that they would need if they're living at home, working jobs, maybe dealing with family. On the other hand, you might think that it creates a different kind of officer. What do you think?

Lieutenant Colonel Davis13:06

I do. I think it creates an empathetic leader in the long run. Somebody who can kind of understand that not everybody was born with wealth or whatever that is and had all the assets they needed to be successful. And some people have to work hard and some of others have to work harder to get to where they're trying to get to. It's a great program. That's really the only word I can use because a lot of those cadets, they rely on each other because when they look around, they're like, oh I'm not the only one working two jobs. This MS4 here did it for three years and they're about to become an officer, I can do it. So, it kind of builds upon each other and builds some kind of resiliency and overall coping mechanism for them to make it through the program and school.

Vince Boudreau13:55

I'm going to ask you for those of us in the civilian sector, MS4, what does that mean?

Lieutenant Colonel Davis14:01

Oh, I'm so sorry. So MS4 is a senior. We have MS level. So MS1 is a freshman, MS2 is a sophomore, MS3 is a junior and MS4 is a senior.

Vince Boudreau14:15

I'm going to be on guard for the military jargon and ask you to unpack it for those of us who are not clued in. But thank you for that. Colonel Davis, I wonder if we could talk a little bit about the relationship between ROTC and positioning of the US military and our society and how maybe that's changed over the years. For centuries, we had a military that pretty much any young man was expected to spend some time either in the military or potentially serving in the military, but we switched to an all-volunteer force maybe towards the middle of Vietnam War. And so now we have an all-volunteer Army and ROTC Corps. Can you talk about in that context, how the role of ROTC maybe has changed over the years.

Lieutenant Colonel Davis15:09

Yes, Sir. So, I mean, just looking at our slogans that have changed over the years from Uncle Sam wants you to be all you can be, Army of one and now I think we're warriors wanted. So just that in itself kind of tells you how we've transitioned throughout the time. But what the Army has realized is we've gone more civilianized and so the way we recruit now, we use a lot of civilian models. In 2020, we went to what was called the Army talent management strategy, and basically, we went to resume before it was called a officer record brief, which we still use, but we also have a resume now. And so, when people are wanting to go to a new assignment or it's time for them to move on, they have to interview. So, they put their name on this list and then they interview with these units.

So now put that into our cadets. So, prior to last year, cadets were assigned based on a number. They had what was called an order of merit list and that's how they got their ranks. That's how they found out what component they received. And we still have an order of merit list, but nested within that is right now our junior cadets. They're putting together their resumes and they will have to interview with the various branches in the Army and then those branches will rank them to determine whether or not they get active duty and whether or not they get that branch. So that's all new because when I became an officer, it was you went where the Army needed you, neither the Army, but now our young officers are being given the opportunity to pick their branches by doing interviews and those interviews weigh heavily on what branch they get.

Vince Boudreau16:53

So, it sounds like part of the work that you are probably doing with your cadet involves education about career development, how you position yourself for interviews, how you think about the relationship between the job you're doing and the next job that you want. Is that something that's part of your curriculum?

Lieutenant Colonel Davis17:13

That is. And like I said, we started at their junior years where we really start hitting in on, it's called the talent-based branching. And so, it's the whole board that they do with the Army HRC, Human Resources Command. That's like the human resource people that determine where people go for their careers and then cadet command, which is my higher headquarters that kind of governs all of our OTC. So, they're looking at these files early on to determine how these cadets can best fit into the Army while also capitalizing on the talent they have. So, people always joke the Army didn't always do a good job at talent management. You might have a finance officer that ended up being a chemical officer. Well, now they're trying to align that better. And then like I said, the cadet plays a big role in it because they have to interview for them. And so, they kind of have a say in where they go.

Vince Boudreau18:11

On this campus, of course we have an architecture school, we have an engineering school, we have advanced sciences. On other CUNY campuses, there are other focuses of academic expertise. John Jay, of course is known for criminal justice. Baruch is known for management and economic and finance. What kinds of majors in college pair particularly well with the kind of career trajectories that the Army is most concerned about? Is the Army looking for engineers? Of course, the answer is the Army is looking for a broad spectrum, but if you were advising a young student, who's just getting started at City College where they should direct their academic efforts in order to provide for the most robust career trajectory in the military, where would you steer that person?

Lieutenant Colonel Davis19:04

Right now, the Army is really big on STEM. We just stood up cyber command and so a lot of the focus is trying to get more younger, talented personnel in the STEM area so we can grow that field.

Vince Boudreau19:20

The cyber issue is so important, particularly given what's going on right now in Ukraine and the way we expect that Russia may be pushing back on the Western Alliance. Do we have in CUNY, the adequate programs to prepare young men and women for the demands of participating in a cyber command, or is that something that we need to work on?

Lieutenant Colonel Davis19:47

I think we do have the programs specifically with CCNY and the architect school. We do have them, it's just a matter of, I would guess, just kind of recruiting those folks to let them know that there are opportunities because a lot of times, people don't realize that the Army has the engineer core. They have all these high-speed jobs. They just see the infantry, the armor, all the other stuff we do, they don't realize we have those skill sets in our organization and so just kind of getting out there to recruit and letting people know that there are opportunities in the United States Army for an engineer, in the electrical, mechanical, whatever the engineering is. And of course, nurses, we always need nurses in the Army, doctors, so we're a very professional organization, just a lot of people don't know that we offer all that.

Vince Boudreau20:42

I want to go back, if I can, we had started to talk a little bit about the evolution of the military into an all-volunteer course. And one of the things that has changed in consequence of that was, is that you have whole sections of society who maybe don't have members of their family who've served in the military and oftentimes you think about wealthier strata. Back in the day, you would expect the sons and daughters of senators and CEOs of corporation and college professors all to have military experience. So, there was a kind of shared understanding of what military life demanded.

That's less the case now than it used to be and I wonder first of all, if that's an accurate reading of the situation and if it is, does that impose particular challenges for cadets and military people today that maybe didn't exist back in the days of the draft. Partly I'm thinking about this Congressman Rangel not too long ago, was pushing the idea of restoring the draft precisely so that everyone in society would have an understanding of an appreciation for military service. And of course, that didn't happen, but what are the challenges that exist for the military as an organization, but also ROTC cadets and young members of the military in a society where huge portions of society really don't have experience with the military.

Lieutenant Colonel Davis22:23

I've only been in the military under the all-volunteer, so I can really only speak for what I've seen since I've been in. And I think we're a great organization because we have people here that have opted to be here that weren't told they had to be here. And so, when you bring all that melting pot together, those who come from nobody in their family had ever served, whereas you get those who have a lineage of family members who have served and you start sharing stories.

I think it creates a great atmosphere for our organization and a lot of the cadets that we have in our program, they're very supportive of the military. And we talked earlier about the demographics of some of the cadets or majority of our cadets at CCNY, CUNY ROTC program and some of them are our first generational college students. Others are, they're like the gateway to get their family to that next level of success and so they take wearing this uniform with pride and being the first in their family to have served. From my perspective, I don't think we've missed anything on our side from the Army or DOD as a whole. I think we've benefited and I think we'll continue to benefit from having to all-volunteer force.

Vince Boudreau23:43

You've made a couple of pretty significant changes or addition to the program on campus. We were talking earlier about the moves you've done to implement an internship program. Can you talk a little bit about your decision you brought to this campus and what you've done to add to what you found in the ROTC program when you came here?

Lieutenant Colonel Davis24:06

I thought I was bringing a vision of just carrying on what was going on and once I got on ground and just kind of analyzed a little bit, talking to cadets and just some of the things that they wish had happened while they were here, just got with my cadre and said we have to do a better job of getting internship opportunities for our cadets. Make them comparable or kind of competitive with the other three programs in the city of New York, because we have four programs here and of course, CUNY is the only state school.

The other three are private schools. And so, let's put our kids on the same playing field as the other three schools, so their resumes are saying and looking the same way. And so, this year we have eight internships, four of our cadets will go to civilian organizations and work and then the other four are going to Army installations where they'll work with Army officers learning what it's like to be an Army officer. I have another cadet.

He was accepted to work at the Office of the Chief of Public Affairs, New York City office and so prior to shipping off or active duty, he'll work in that office doing public affairs stuff. And that was the selection process that he was selected for. And then your office or the school gave us the internship as well. And we're hiring a cadet to work that job, and that'll give her some opportunity to expand her resume once she graduates and as she goes out into the field. And like I said, we're just trying to bring same opportunities to the CUNY cadets that the other programs in the city are getting at the private schools.

Vince Boudreau25:49

Well, I have one last question for you, and it's a kind of a general question. The mission of the military evolves over time to meet new challenges or capitalize on new capabilities. And I wonder, are there some big changes in the Army's mission over the last decade that may impact the decision of a young man or young woman who might be thinking about joining and wondering what that might lead to in their lives?

Lieutenant Colonel Davis26:18

Yes. So, the big paradigm shift for us, not that we didn't always care, but we're people first now and it's like, well, what does that mean? It means it's tied in whole diversity, equity, inclusion, making everybody feel like they have a place at the table. And for some people, that's been a hard shift to realize that soldiers don't just come the Army ready to work, some of them you have to work with and get them to the place to where they're ready. And in order to do that, you got to be willing to put people first.

That civilians, soldiers, families, because if a soldier's family is having issues or they're impacted in that area, they're not going to be a productive soldier. And we've lost a lot of soldiers by not being people-first-oriented, not putting the needs of others sometimes above the mission. And that may sound strange, but sometimes we have to put it above the mission in order to do the mission. We got to put our people first. And so that's been our biggest shift, is that aspect of people-first strategy.

Vince Boudreau27:25

And it's now a great pleasure for me to introduce and welcome to the show, Lieutenant General Samuel Ebbesen. He commissioned the military in 1961, the same year that he graduated from CCNY. I want to welcome him to the show, but first tell you a little bit about his work and his life. Lieutenant General Ebbesen is a retired three-star United States Army General, but I guess there's no real retirement for grandparents, so still putting in his time. He was born in St. Croix, US Virgin Islands. He moved to New York City as a young adult and received a Bachelor of Science degree in Political Science, my home department here at CCNY, in 1961 and that was from City College of New York.

While at City College, he enrolled in the ROTC program and received his military commission as a Second Lieutenant when he graduated, as I said, a few moments ago, in 1961. During his military career, he served in the Vietnam War, 1966, as a military advisor. And when he returned to the United States in 1970, he assumed an assignment as District Senior Advisor to the US Army's 24th Corps. In September of 1982, General Ebbesen was promoted to Colonel and from 1983 to 1985, he served as the Commander of the First Brigade, 101st Airborne Division at Fort Campbell. From 1986 to 1988, he was the Chief of Staff for I Corps Fort Lewis in Washington State.

From April 1990 to July 1992, General Ebbesen served as the Commanding General of the Second US Army at Fort Gillem, Georgia, and was promoted to Brigadier General on January 1st, 1988. March of 1993, he was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant General. One year later, in 1994, he received his last military assignment when he became the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Military Personnel Policy and was stationed at the Pentagon in Washington, DC. His task in that assignment was to help plan and organize appointments of military personnel throughout the world. And I believe General Ebbesen, that was your position you were in when you organized a response to Florida hurricane, which we'll talk about a little bit later.

In January of 1997, General Ebbesen retired from military service at the rank of Lieutenant General. And at that point, he had served in the US Army for over 35 years. He was highly decorated for his service. He received the Legion of Merit and the Bronze Star Medal among other commendations. And I'll say, he's currently on the Board of Visitors for the Colin Powell School for Civic and Global Leadership. The late General Colin Powell gave him a shout out in his number one New York Times, bestseller My American Journey. We'll talk about General Powell also in this interview. I know that the two of you went to City College together and remained close for the rest of your time together. General Ebbesen, welcome to From City to the World. It's a real pleasure to have you here.

Lieutenant General Ebbesen30:37

Mr. President, it's a pleasure to be here.

Vince Boudreau30:41

Well, can you start by telling us a little bit about your professional trajectory from CCNY days in the military? We talked about your postings and your assignment, but in terms of the work that you did and the responsibilities that you accumulated over the course of your career, how did things change for you as you rose through the ranks?

Lieutenant General Ebbesen31:04

Well, I've got to go back to the very beginning because listening to you talking with Lieutenant Colonel Davis about ROTC, joining ROTC for me was the best decision I've ever made in my life and changed my direction and put me in a path to success. Because prior to that, I was majoring in lounge and then joining ROTC, I found myself for the first time with the tools to give me the opportunity to be a successful leader and manager with skills that I got from not only ROTC itself, but from the Pershing Rifles and the ROTC cadet students that I work with in terms of learning how to deal with teams and having a support group that cared about me and made me care about others and made me a good team player.

So essentially ROTC really taught me about life and how to choose a profession or an Army career or other career. Because when I got out the Army, the same principles I learned in ROTC was applicable across the spectrum of jobs that I've had after retirement. Has the Army changed? The Army has changed immensely. When I was in ROTC, when you graduated, I happened to have been successful during the six weeks at Fort Bragg, the summer camp, which each of us went to and they stress you with all the things that you learned during their college days.

I was successful there and then at the end of my senior year was designated distinguished graduate and that got me in the queue to be a regular Army officer. In those days, they sent you what Army needed you unlike today, where the choices are, man matched a heck of a lot better than they were during my initial time coming into the Army. So, they're doing a super job today matching up the individual with the job requirements that they are skilled in better than when I was coming along.

Vince Boudreau33:39

Over time, what became your specialty? What were you known for in your work?

Lieutenant General Ebbesen33:45

I was sort of getting tagged with being a game changer. I had developed a great ability to going into broken units and fixing them, broken systems and fixing them. One of the last things I fixed was the travel system in the department of defense, which had tons and tons of rules and regulations fit into about 16 boxes. Matter of fact, we had them all put down together in a room, took pictures of them. So, they take them over to Congress to show them what the system, as it stood, was and how it needed to be fixed and changed it down to where the final document that we produced was 21 pages. Simply powering down and trusting people. That's what it took.

Vince Boudreau34:32

When you would go into a broken system, was every system broken in a unique way or were there kind of things that you would look for across systems to say I know this is a sign of trouble everywhere I've seen it.

Lieutenant General Ebbesen34:46

It's amazing how little things are the indicators that tell you whether or not a unit is good, whether it's in the military or it's in the civilian environment. As my good friend, Colin Powell, used to say, you manage the small things, because those are the indicators of what our unit does to other things well too.

Vince Boudreau35:09

You've brought up General Powell's name. I think I heard this from him that you were the guy that kind of drew him into ROTC at CCNY?

Lieutenant General Ebbesen35:22

It's the other way around. I used to tease him that he sold me ROTC for a check of $27 and a camel hair coat because he thought that he was the greatest recruiter in the world and had recruited me, when really that's what those two things are the things that got me interested. Two of my good buddies who I played soccer with in high school were members of ROTC and that's how they kind of enticed me into joining simply because they were the best group of people on campus. They were focused. They were always doing their things together. There was a helping hand reached out across the spectrum, and they started included me, not being part of the group, but just on a friendship basis in their activities. So I decided what the heck, besides they're going to give me $27, give me a coat, the camel hair coat that was vogue in the village and so I had nothing to lose, but in fact, I did have lot to gain and which was life changing experience.

Vince Boudreau36:38

So, you mentioned that ROTC really provided you with a group that supported you and that you supported. Could you just give us a little bit of a picture of what it was like to walk around campus as a member of ROTC or was there a special spot where you could always find the ROTC guys hanging out? I assume they were all guys at the time.

Lieutenant General Ebbesen37:04

Yes. Precisely that. We hadn't been wise enough to include females in the military in those days. And they asked of course, especially. The campus had a couple of military fraternities. One was the Perching Rifles and that's the group that Colin was involved with leading at the time. He was the Company Commander A8, which was that fraternity city. They had a room designated and had use of the facilities for training and drill meets and things like that. And they kind of grew together as a fraternity and acted as a fraternity. We partied together, we studied together. We had study groups. We knew when one another had exams and to reach out to each other to help.

If they needed to have clothes taken to the laundry, we'd do that while they stayed in the library. And then we had guys that looked out for one another. I know when Colin came to the lounge and saw me there, he gave me that look of what the heck are you doing in here? Get to the library. I kind of packed my stuff up and go do what I was supposed to have been doing. But that's the way we kind of meld together as a group and ROTC was the baseline from which that kind of team building took place. All the years, we've always stayed in touch with one another and have activities to this day. Matter of fact, the AA group meets at least once a month via Zoom.

Vince Boudreau38:48

And the Pershing Rifles, is that within the ROTC Alumni Group?

Lieutenant General Ebbesen38:52

That's correct.

Vince Boudreau38:53

The Pershing Rifles still kind of keep in touch with one another and know what's going on in your lives?

Lieutenant General Ebbesen38:59

We just had a monthly meeting on Zoom that's been going on now ever since the virus.

Vince Boudreau39:07

So I'm going to ask Colonel Davis, if I'm not mistaken, we currently have a Pershing Rifles group that's active in our current cohort, is that correct?

Lieutenant Colonel Davis39:16

Sir, that is correct. We have the Q&E Persian Rifles company off eight and they actually placed third nationally in the color guard event that occurred in March of this year.

Vince Boudreau39:29

Was color guard part of what you all did back in the day General Ebbesen in the Pershing Rifles?

Lieutenant General Ebbesen39:35

Yes, we were. And matter of fact, a lot of the people in Pershing Rifles group were leaders within the ROTC program and Cedar College at that time had one of the largest ROTC programs in the Eastern seaboard.

Vince Boudreau39:49

General Ebbesen, can you talk a little bit about the skills you had as an ROTC graduate that you maybe compare it to other CCNY graduates at the time? Was there something special in your portfolio that you got because of ROTC back then?

Lieutenant General Ebbesen40:08

Well, I think there are a couple of basic things that we developed out of ROTC. One, the importance of having a great set of values, the importance of strong character, a great work ethic, the ability to plan well, the importance of taking care of soldiers. Things of that nature were ingrained in us throughout the ROTC program. Time management, those are the kind of things that will not only work for the Army, but it's also applicable to any job that you undertake outside of the Army. I would say risk management, branches and sequels for any project that you have. The importance of powering down. One of the things that I used and learned early on is question I was asked a couple of times in ROTC. How do you know when you're winning?

Vince Boudreau41:28

Yeah.

Lieutenant General Ebbesen41:29

And I've used that across the entire spectrum of my professional career. Up in the Army and out. It allows you then to develop the systemic approach to planning, to doing the analysis required, doing the research, doing the risk management that's required, the importance of clear communications and given instructions. Those are the key things that I took away from ROTC that stayed with me and were able to focus and develop more strongly as I went along throughout my career.

Vince Boudreau42:11

And you got to correct me if I'm wrong on this, but one of the key moments in your later career involved you, I believe, organizing logistics in a crisis of a hurricane in Florida. Can you talk a little bit about the work you did in that moment?

Lieutenant General Ebbesen42:34

Yeah. You're talking about the hurricane Andrew recovery operation.

Vince Boudreau42:38

That's correct. Yes.

Lieutenant General Ebbesen42:40

That took place in Florida. Matter of fact, I was playing golf with my wife to celebrate her birthday at Fort Benning, Georgia when I got a call that afternoon, that said, there's a hurricane on a hit, you need to activate your response team to go take of the operation in Florida. The next morning, I flew down with my aid and some communication gear on a helicopter and landed in Florida. And from there in the next week, built out a staff of over 500 people from across the whole defense establishment that was only able to be done due to the prior planning that had taken place in terms of responding to various kinds of disasters. But it also demonstrated the clear workings of having a joint approach to doing business of that nature.

And we were able to do our work and focused on getting civilian control back over, handed back over to them in a short period of four months. It's one of the strongest hurricanes the country had seen and up to that point in time, category five at one point, and the place was completely devastated. Reestablishing government operations was our primary function so that we can get out the way and hand it back to the local government in a reasonable shape that they can continue their governing process and rebuilding after the disaster. We were fortunate.

We had good cooperation across the entire spectrum, but we learned a lot from it and the important thing that came out in an operation was the procedures that was developed that we used during the operation. And a lot of those procedures came out of asking the question, when do I know when I'm winning? And it's by going through that learning process, laying it out across the spectrum, identifying various metrics it required, bring it back to what it was prior to the disaster, and then doing an after action review that looked at what we were supposed to do, what we did do, what we didn't do well, what we did well and then writing that up in such a way that the Congress was able to take that and change the way that SEMA operated with legislation and funding and it became the standard operating procedure from that day forward.

Vince Boudreau45:39

In my memory, Hurricane Andrew, in a way it rewrote a lot of the rule books about what we needed to prepare for and what a response would look like. And I think both the rapid turnover of management to civilian authority, but also all of the resources that needed to be mobilized to answer the challenge of that hurricane, it was really like almost nothing we'd seen before but we've seen a fair number of similar scenarios. We're getting to the end of our time, but I can't let you go without asking you to comment on your relationship on campus and subsequently with General Powell. If we're talking about ROTC at City College, you got to begin and end that conversation with the discussion of him. And I know he was deeply important to your life on campus and afterwards, what was it like to serve with him?

Lieutenant General Ebbesen46:32

Well, we got together in City College early on when I was introduced to him at an ROTC function. Matter of fact, in Finley Lounge. In our subsequent relationship, it was fostered based on how I think being from the Caribbean, both of our families from leaf and Virgin Island and he of course from Jamaican background and we linked up very well. And he did a lot to make sure that I was from then on, on a successful path and kept me on a straight and narrow.

And that relationship kept much over the years. Although we never served in the same unit together, we were always close across the entire spectrum. Matter of fact, our families were joined almost as one over the many years. He was an incredibly talented individual and he cared deeply about people. And that went from the smallest level, all the way up to the top. And he was dependable and he's always willing to share with the folks that he worked for and those in the immediate surroundings. I couldn't have had a better friend in my life and I miss him.

Vince Boudreau47:55

No, we all miss him. I suppose over the years, the two of you made a lot about two guys from CCNY climbing the military to its very upper echelon.

Lieutenant General Ebbesen48:08

Well, we used to tease one another about getting bagels and pretzels. That's what kept us going.

Vince Boudreau48:17

That's terrific. Raymond the bagel man, that's a name that resonates through alumni from across a number of different decades. Listen, I want to thank you General Ebbesen for spending time with us and also Lieutenant Colonel LaShell Davis, who is now our professor of military science here at CUNY. Thank you at home for listening to, From City to the World. The show is produced by Angela Hardin and I'm Vince Boudreau and I'm President here at the college and I help Angela out a little bit in the production. Thanks for listening everybody.