Vincent Boudreau
On the latest episode of From City to the World, City College of New York President Vincent Boudreau hosts alumna Akasha Solis (2016, 2022), CCNY Outdoors Project co-leader and special projects manager, and Ella Hartley, founder of Wilderness First Aid NYC. Hear how the Outdoors Project, sponsored by CCNY's Office of the President, champions access to nature for all, through inclusive excursions, leadership training and wilderness safety education. Charting the growth of this program and a student-run club, Solis highlights the impact of the Outdoors Project and its mission to build equity, empowerment and knowledge of the natural environment among diverse populations at CCNY. Learn how Hartley's background in racial justice and expertise in wilderness medicine and outdoors education intersect with CCNY's work and also inform her organization's public programs in New York City.
Host: CCNY President Vincent Boudreau
Guests: Akasha Solis, CCNY Outdoors Project Co-Leader and Special Projects Manager; Ella Hartley, Founder of Wilderness First Aid NYC and Co-Founder of Green Wood & Duff
Episode Transcript
Vincent Boudreau
Welcome to From City to the World . I'm your host, Vincent Boudreau, the President of The City College of New York. From City to the World is a show about how the work that we’re doing at City College matters to people across the city and throughout the world. And so we'll discuss the practical applications of work that we're doing across our campus, in our schools, and some of the special projects that we've been working on. We've had, over the last couple of episodes, a kind of emerging theme around sustainability, and we're going to stick with that theme now that summer is truly and unambiguously here, with a hundred degrees outside. And so today we're going to be discussing summer emergency preparedness and navigating our great outdoors.
At CCNY, in my office, we operate the CCNY Outdoor Project, which is rooted in the belief that everyone deserves a meaningful connection to nature. Through outdoor education and shared experiences, we aim to foster a sense of belonging, stewardship, and joy in the natural world, especially among those who have been historically underrepresented in these spaces. And as a matter of education, we also believe that when our young people move into spaces where they have historically not had a strong presence, they learn that they belong everywhere. And so the outdoors felt like a really great place for us to start that project. So the mission of the Outdoor Project is to create opportunities for the CCNY community, which includes students, staff, faculty, and alumni to explore, learn, and grow together in the outdoors. Whether you're a first-time hiker or seasoned adventure, our programs are open to all and designed to nurture environmental appreciation, to build confidence and outdoor skills, and inspire a collective re-imagining of what it means to look like and to be connected to the wild.
So by hosting inclusive, beginner-friendly outdoor activities, we hope to expand access to deepen knowledge and cultivate a more diverse and empowered community of environmental stewards right here in our backyard. We talk about the work we do in the Outdoors Project and how we are preparing our CCNY community to explore the outdoors more, and we'll do that in this show. And I would like first, to welcome my first guest. Akasha Solis. I'll tell you a bit about Akasha right now. She's a proud alumna of The City College of New York, where she earned, first, her BA in International Studies and Political Science, and she had a minor in Women's Studies and graduated in 2016. And later, she returned to CCNY to complete her Master's in the branding and integrated communications program in 2022. And in that work, she blended her passion for storytelling, equity, and strategic partnerships.
Throughout her career, Akasha has cultivated dynamic relationships with mission-driven organizations like Outdoor Afro and the Appalachian Mountain Club, working to expand access to outdoor education and experiences for historically marginalized communities. Her leadership at CCNY helped launch and grow programming that reached over 200 students, staff, faculty, and alumni, and transformed perceptions of who belongs in nature. Lifelong summer camp enthusiast turned counselor, Akasha's love for the outdoors began at the age of seven and has shaped her commitment to environmental justice and inclusive recreation. She's passionate about creating spaces for all people to feel empowered, connected, and welcome in the great outdoors. Akasha, welcome to From City to the World .
Akasha Solis
Thank you.
Vincent Boudreau
Very glad to have you here today. So I want to start from the beginning. We said in the introduction that, at seven years old, you began your interactions with the outdoors. And that's clearly shaped the way that you have directed your professional life and some of the other work that you do. So what inspired you to bring that passion back to City College in your involvement in the Outdoor Project?
Akasha Solis
Thank you for having me. So, actually, after I finished high school, I went straight to Penn State. I was there for about two years, and then I ended up transferring to City College, because I realized I missed New York, I missed the diversity. And once I was here, I still had a lot of friends at Penn State, and a lot of them, they went hiking, they went camping, they went skiing. And because I went to summer camp since I was seven years old, I was still a camp counselor when I was going here, so one of my first thoughts was, I really wanted to bring access to students here, just because I felt, truthfully, I was not someone who participated in a lot of things in college. So I was really excited to start something here, but it wasn't my idea originally ; we actually had our alum, Justin Bailey, who started the Outdoors Club. And thanks to you and Dee Dee Mozeleski, we actually connected with the Appalachian Mountain Club, which helped kind of build that partnership at the beginning.
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah, and Justin Bailey worked and maybe still works for the Appalachian Mountain Club, but years ago, and I mean years ago, as a professor, I'm coming in the front door of the North Academic Complex, and there's this guy and he's got tents and he's got outdoor equipment. And it was young Justin Bailey getting the Outdoors Club started. And what happens, a lot of times, with student-led clubs is, student starts something and then they graduate and they atrophy.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
So it was really a treat that he came back and that you came back and I was able to get involved in this as well. So let's talk a little bit about the project itself. What kind of activities do you sponsor and how does it resonate with the students?
Akasha Solis
Yeah, that's a great question. A big thing for us is that we want to do the educational part as well as the recreational part. So, something that's newer, is we've actually started doing the writers' retreat, that happens in the spring and the fall. We've partnered with Michelle Valladares and Rob Barron as well, so we do that usually in May and October.
Vincent Boudreau
And Michelle and Rob are two faculty members here at the college.
Akasha Solis
Two, yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Akasha Solis
Yeah, exactly. And it's been great working with them, they are amazing. And each time that the program ends, they send us a whole feedback on the program, they send us photos. It's really great. They use it as specifically a writers' retreat, so they're able to workshop ideas off of each other, so that's one aspect that we have. Something that I would say was the original idea, was the summer retreat in August. That is supposed to be our Team Leadership and Outdoor Skills Retreat. All our programs, I would say, are open to student, staff, faculty, and alum. But the original programming was that August retreat, and then we ended up building out the Wilderness First Aid Program. Which we are now partnering with Ella Hartley here, which we're really excited about. Our first couple of years, we did it in New Hampshire, but then, just to provide more access to our CCNY community, we wanted to bring it closer, so we're now doing it at the Harriman Outdoor Center.
But our biggest thing is, giving different opportunities for our students and community in general. Because it's exciting, but our programs fill up incredibly quick. We'll send out the broadcast, and my partner and colleague, Ashley, we will get the email, and it's booked already in like five minutes. So it's really exciting. But we definitely would love to expand more programming in the future, but what we have so far, we're really proud of.
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah. I want to ask a little bit about the writing retreat and the leadership program. What do you think?
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
It adds when you get a bunch of people together, or people who are pursuing a degree in creative writing, or who are, in some cases, working on plays, or people who are working on leadership skills? What does it do to take that activity and situate it in the wilderness?
Akasha Solis
That's really, really a great question. It's interesting because I actually wanted to do a writers' retreat in Montana. And when we created this program with Michelle and Rob, I think what's really beautiful about it, I'm very spiritual, and I know Michelle and I have spoken about this before as well. The students get this aspect of silence that they don't get when they're here, so they're able to really clear their thoughts. It's almost like therapy for them, where they're able to decompress and kind of... It's almost like their brains open up. And I think that's something that we've seen in a lot of their, I'm forgetting the word, but their feedback for the program, is they get that silence, they get this really beautiful bonding experience where they grow these friendships that, some of them would've never met. And that's happened in all of our programs, that's honestly the most beautiful thing I think, about our programs, that makes me excited. So I would say probably the silence and the opportunity to get away and kind of provide that Montana-like experience, but just closer to home.
Vincent Boudreau
I want to ask you a little bit about the kind of underlying mission of this project, which is to redefine who belongs in the outdoors. And can you see how, as you worked with students that have moved from maybe not being hikers, not maybe ever even going to Harriman, despite the fact that it's only about 30 miles away. How do you see their sense of their relationship with the outdoors changing in these interactions?
Akasha Solis
Yeah. I would say something that we've seen that's pretty common, is a lot of our students are, we have the most diverse population, and a lot of them are first gen, or they've had experience in their home countries with the outdoors. So when they come here, it's really sweet because a lot of them will say, "Oh, I didn't know we had this." And I think it's almost like they kind of reconnect with themselves and their homeland in a way. And so many of them have told us, too, "Oh, I love hiking back in Ecuador or Pakistan." And then it's like they come here and it's like, "Oh, it feels good to be able to do that again."
And we've seen so many times these students, they'll come together and then they'll do their own trips, they'll do their own hikes. And I think that's something that is really important to us, because a big reason why we really wanted to start this project and we felt so supported through the President's office, is because, from my personal experience, the summer camp I went to, I loved it, but there wasn't really many girls of color. I went to an all-girl summer camp. So I was one of the few girls who looked like myself. I always felt welcomed, but it was pretty clear, like, okay, this is not accessible to everybody.
And I think there's this narrative of the outdoors that I find is still not accurate. I think people, maybe the way media portrays it, but also certain brands, when they're talking about diversity or they're showing diversity in their advertising, it doesn't feel authentic. And I think it's because a lot of brands are trying to push, "Oh yeah, we care about people of color," but in our experiences, even when we've traveled with our students, we've experienced setbacks, where people are looking at us and treating us differently because of our skin color, because of our religion. And that's something that Ashley and I have dealt with many times. We've stood up for our students, staff, and faculty, and it's something that we want to break through, because it's not just a white population who hikes, or camps, or swims. And I think the barriers are, yes, they're financial, but I think it's also the narrative that's put out there, that it's like, "Oh, well, this is not really for you." And that's something that we're really like, that's our biggest passion, is just breaking that barrier.
Vincent Boudreau
This is for everybody.
Akasha Solis
For everybody.
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah, yeah.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
And it's also the case that some of the most famous, most established outdoor organizations were founded on the idea that people needed a way to escape from the city.
Akasha Solis
Right.
Vincent Boudreau
Which meant, escape from the people that live in the city-
Akasha Solis
Yes.
Vincent Boudreau
And go to a place that's more homogenous.
Akasha Solis
Right.
Vincent Boudreau
So it's not like there's not a kind of organizational infrastructure over these kinds of barriers as well.
Akasha Solis
Exactly.
Vincent Boudreau
Okay. Let's talk a little bit about individual experiences that you've seen. Can you talk a little bit about individual students whose participation in the project moved you in a particular way?
Akasha Solis
Oh, yeah. Wow. So we've had a lot of students who have told me and Ashley that they are neurodivergent in some way, and they don't feel comfortable around, just like large groups of people. That's something that we always try and be very open-minded about and accommodating. I'm neurodivergent, so for me, I understand people needing time to just decompress and be alone. Of course, I'm getting emotional. But the one student I'm thinking about, I'm like, let me not cry on radio. One of our students actually, they were really, really shy and they would not speak to anyone. And I remember we were swimming together, me and this person, and we went on the, it's difficult to explain, but there are two docks further out on the lake in Harriman. And so we swam out to the dock together, we were sitting there. And we just bonded over anime, and they were like, "Oh, I didn't realize." Like it just didn't feel comfortable, but then after that interaction, I watched them, and people were including them in things.
And it was really sweet because I've seen people's, it sounds silly, it's only a three-day retreat or a two-day retreat, but you can see people's personality almost like blossom. Because it's like they feel, oh, okay, I can breathe. And I think it's also because there's no cell phone service, so it's easier to, actually, you have to focus on the person in front of you instead of being on your phone.
Vincent Boudreau
Right. Right.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
But it doesn't sound strange that a three-day experience has that kind of profound impact. I mean, one of the reasons I originally started to augment my work as a professor with these kinds of activities, was that students would come back from anything that took them out of their lives, out of the college to another place where they could be together, and they came back and they were just different.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
They were more connected, more bonded. And that's really important on a campus where we don't have a lot of dormitories and most students are always commuters, and so looking for these kind of connections is really important.
I want to actually push you, though, because I've been involved in this, I know some of the stories. Could you tell us a little bit about what happened when we brought a group of our students to Mount Washington in New Hampshire, to do the Wilderness Outdoor? What was it like to bring a group of students to that? I mean, those of you that don't know, Mount Washington is the highest peak in the White Mountains. It is the place that has recorded the strongest winds ever in humanity, there's a weather station up there. It is a beautiful mountain, but it's a serious mountain - you're above the Timberline for a thousand feet when you're climbing Mount Washington. You weren't that far out. My point is, though, it is remote and it is beautiful.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
It's probably unlike anything that most of these students have been to. What was it like to be there with those students?
Akasha Solis
Do you want the censored version or the uncensored version?
Vincent Boudreau
No, you know what, it's radio, so uncensored, obviously.
Akasha Solis
Okay. So we, shout out to CharterUp Buses, we actually use a bus vendor that helps us bring our students, staff, and faculty up from City College to these places. They're amazing. We actually had a driver who did a round-trip drive to New Hampshire. It was about, I can't even remember how long that drive is, it must be eight or nine hours up to New Hampshire, right?
Vincent Boudreau
That's about right.
Akasha Solis
Yeah. So Ashley got there before I did, and she was calling me, and she barely had service, and she was like, "The bus driver needs a room." And we were like, "What?" Because that is a round-trip bus, so. So I'll shorten this, because I tend to ramble. But essentially what happened was, we had to book a room for the driver. And truthfully, I think that a lot of the people who worked at the lodging center we were at, have, I'm not sure, but we definitely felt a certain way in terms of the way that they were looking at the driver and the way that they were looking at our students. And it was so much so to the point that when I finally got there, I actually had to say something because I felt uncomfortable. I think it's also because I'm very protective of our CCNY body, especially because these students are so sweet. We actually had members of public safety and facilities there on that specific trip, it was so amazing to see.
Vincent Boudreau
As participants.
Akasha Solis
As participants, yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Akasha Solis
And they had a blast. And it's really nice to see the different ages bonding with each other, 'cause everybody is so different. But it was really sweet and the experience was beautiful, and they lent us gear, it was really great. But I would say we definitely had experienced some sort of, I would say, microaggressions, which is not uncommon. And I think it kind of just repeats to Ashley and I and everyone at this college, why we have to keep doing the work that we're doing. Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
So, on the side of your students, what are the kinds of misconceptions or insecurities that they bring to this kind of activity?
Akasha Solis
I would say the biggest thing is gear. A lot of them don't feel like they have the proper attire to hike, or to go swimming, or do any sort of outdoor activity. Thankfully, the AMC does lend out gear for free.
Vincent Boudreau
That's the Appalachian Mountain Club.
Akasha Solis
Yeah, Appalachian Mountain Club. So they'll lend our student, staff, and faculty, gear, which is really great. And I think that once they see that, they're like, "Oh, okay, I feel better," because maybe they didn't have the proper shoes or whatever. Which I completely understand, 'cause I have had to buy hiking shoes and they are expensive. So I would say that's the biggest barrier I've heard. That, or they don't feel comfortable swimming.
Vincent Boudreau
Okay.
Akasha Solis
But thankfully, there's life jackets, so a lot of them will be... Actually, this is a funny story. We had a student who was like, "I'm not getting in the water." And then by the second day, they were in the water spinning around in a circle, happy, with a life jacket on. And we were like, "Okay, good, like this is what we want to see, people trying new things," so yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
I mean, we developed the project because this idea of belonging matters.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
Do you see that mirrored in students' approach to the outdoors, that there's a kind of sense of, do I belong here, or am I going to be accepted here? Could you talk a little bit about that?
Akasha Solis
Yeah. I would say the way that we approach it when we go in, is we try to be, it sounds weird, but almost as nonchalant as possible, like it's not a big deal for them to be there. So it's kind of just like, oh, okay, we're all just here together.
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Akasha Solis
And I do feel like our population who comes with us, they do seem like they just feel so comfortable. You can tell just in the way that they start to walk around and they're looking at the trees, and it's almost like, oh, okay, they don't feel uncomfortable, and I can see the layers shedding each day that they're there. So much so that on the last day, they're like, "Oh, I don't want to go back."
Vincent Boudreau
Right.
Akasha Solis
And I'm like, "Yeah, me neither." So it's really nice, I do see the change, and I see it every single trip, so it's really nice to witness. Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
I want to pivot now to the work that you're doing with Ella in the summer preparedness and outdoor safety training.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
What's the collaboration look like, and why is it important to the work of the Outdoor Project?
Akasha Solis
Yeah. So Ashley and I are really excited. We were working with the Appalachian Mountain Club, and I think it was Solo Wilderness before. But we actually got connected through Barbara, who works in the office of Institutional Advancement and Communications. So thankful to her that we connected, because we had a Zoom call, Ashley, Ella, and I, and once we got off, we were like, "We love her." We were like, "She needs to be our wilderness First Aid instructor. She's great." And it was interesting because there's a lot of things that you said that felt, it was almost like I didn't have to tell her what we needed, she just knew. And I will say, we've done so many, I mean, Ashley and I have taken so many like DEI courses, and it just feels very like, okay, this is very lecturey, or it's stuff that we already know.
But it just felt like Ella's experience and her passion is so authentic, that it was almost like, oh, okay, we have to have her as the instructor for this Wilderness First Aid course. And then also hopefully build out a partnership further down the line too, 'cause it just seems like you bring this vibe that's very authentic. And Ashley and I were like, "Oh my God, we feel like we just had a therapy session," 'cause we just felt so relaxed after. So I would say that's what we're really excited for. There's like a sense of knowing that this wilderness First Aid session is going to be so much different, and I think our students are really going to appreciate being around someone like you, so we're really excited for it.
Vincent Boudreau
So I'm going to ask you this question and Ella, when we come around to the second half of the show, I'll probably put something like this in front of you as well. But we're starting with young people who, in many cases, haven't had a lot of opportunities to be outdoors.
Akasha Solis
Right.
Vincent Boudreau
But really, frontloading wilderness First Aid and emergency preparedness. And could you talk a little bit about the thinking about why we wanted to put that so far up front? I mean, obviously, when you're out in the woods, you want to be safe.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
But our students, also, are mostly with hike leaders who are trained in this as well, so it's not like they're on their own out there doing our regular activities. So what else does Wilderness Emergency Preparedness do, that speaks to the bigger mission of this project?
Akasha Solis
Yeah. I would definitely say, it brings the educational aspect that we want. We want our students, staff, faculty to be equipped in the outdoors. It's nice to go on hikes, but it's also, it's a life skill that's really helpful, and it's something that they can carry with them for as long as they live. And so many of our students, I keep saying students, but it's the whole CCNY community, love to travel, they love to hike. So I think it's just really helpful for them to know those skills and to be able to... In a way, I think it's also like breaking a barrier, because I think a lot of them don't realize that they can take something like this, or have a certificate like that. So I would say it's hopefully giving them the autonomy to know, okay, I can take care of someone if they're stranded in the woods, or we're on this hike. Like, so many of our students in the Outdoors Club have been leading hikes regularly, and a lot of them are Wilderness First Aid certified, so I feel, yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
As members of the Outdoor Club or?
Akasha Solis
As members of the Outdoors Club, yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
Huh.
Akasha Solis
Uh-huh.
Vincent Boudreau
So, how big is the club now?
Akasha Solis
Oh my gosh, it's huge. I think there are so many members. It's really beautiful to see. I would say, Angie and Richie have done a really great job at building this network. They've done an incredible job.
Vincent Boudreau
Angie and Richie are?
Akasha Solis
Oh, CCNY students.
Vincent Boudreau
CCNY students.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
Okay.
Akasha Solis
And Elton as well, and Lee.
Vincent Boudreau
Right.
Akasha Solis
Sorry, there's a lot of people, but yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
So the students are really taking ownership of the club and building it out.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
That's kind of a new thing, that feels like-
Akasha Solis
It is.
Vincent Boudreau
A new kind of generation of this stuff.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
So we were talking about a pretty far-flung experience on Mount Washington and New Hampshire, but I want to kind of bring it back down, because one of the things that I think is really striking about the Outdoor Club is, a lot of your hikes are Van Cortlandt Park, Prospect Park, like-
Akasha Solis
Central Park, yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
Central Park, Urban Hikes. Can you talk about how you think about identifying the wild at distance and in your backyard? What does that mean?
Akasha Solis
Yeah, that's a good question. I would say, so many of our students, I think, it's that entryway of Van Cortlandt, Central Park, Prospect Park, and then it kind of escalates to the Hudson Line, so Breakneck and everything like further up.
Vincent Boudreau
So, just for folks that are hearing this, a lot of the hikes are associated with stops on the train that you can take from 125th Street or Grand Central Station.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
So when Akasha says, "The Hudson Line," that's a train you can get on and go up to Breakneck, which is a fantastic hike.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
So there are ways to make this accessible, even at distance.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
But go on.
Akasha Solis
Oh, no. And I would say that's the biggest thing, is them recognizing those skills from Wilderness First Aid can be taken in Van Cortlandt Park, or they can be taken to somewhere that has rock scrambles, like Breakneck. So hopefully they're able to. And I think they take it really seriously. The one year that I was there for New Hampshire, I think it was two years ago, they were so proud when they received their certificate, and they put it right in their wallet, and they were taking photos of it. And we had faculty there that year too, like a lot of faculty attended, so I think that they know, okay, this is something I can take with me, no matter what park, or hike I go on. Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
You used a phrase just a second ago, "rock scramble . " W hat's that?
Akasha Solis
Oh yeah. Rock scramble. So that is pretty much when you're, oh my gosh, I feel like I'm blanking on the definition now. Maybe I need you to jump in Ella.
Ella Hartley
Yeah, it's-.
Akasha Solis
I need help
Ella Hartley
It's when you're traveling over rocks, but you don't need any additional gear or any protection, like ropes or a harness. And I mean, it's kind of what you do as a kid on the playground, or just like scrambling up things. And there are many places, even in Central Park, where there are great places to scramble up rocks that you don't want to fall. And also, it's easy enough that gives it a little bit of a thrill without being super dangerous.
Vincent Boudreau
Joining the conversation is Ella Hartley. Ella has been an outdoor educator and wilderness medicine instructor for over a decade. She spent most of her career working in the Colorado Rocky Mountains and now lives in Queens. Is the, I'm sorry, I can't say that sentence without a little chuckle. She-
Ella Hartley
Life moves in mysterious ways.
Vincent Boudreau
It sure does. Ella is the founder of Wilderness First Aid NYC, where she teaches outdoorsy New Yorkers how to respond to medical emergencies in the wilderness. In over a decade of personal and professional backcountry trips, including rafting the Grand Canyon, leading winter camping trips in the Rockies, and through hiking New Zealand, I got to say, through hiking New Zealand, yeah. Ella has experienced firsthand a number of remote emergency experiences she pulls on to prepare her students for their role and responsibilities as outdoor recreators, guides, and first responders.
Ella also earned her Master's of Divinity in Racial Justice and Healing from Harvard Divinity School in 2021. She now serves as a trainer and consultant on the intersection of racial justice and outdoor education with the organization Green Wood & Duff. Ella is responsible to her students, to her related and chosen families, to the next generations, and to the lands of the Ute people in Colorado and the Canarsie and Munsee Lenape people of Queens, New York. Her must-have med kit items include medical tape, pen, and pocket snacks. Pocket snacks. Ella, welcome to From City to the World . We're really thrilled to have you here with us and-
Ella Hartley
Thank you so much for having me.
Vincent Boudreau
And also to have you working with our outdoor club.
Ella Hartley
I'm thrilled. I'm so excited to become a part of the CCNY community in this way.
Vincent Boudreau
It sounds like the two of you have kind of found each other, which is really thrilling. So you bring years of experience in wilderness medicine and outdoors education, and you bring it to this conversation. So, what are some of the most important safety principles you teach to new outdoor recreators?
Ella Hartley
First of all, is prevention. So everything we talk about in course is what could go wrong. And we back it up every time, to how could this not happen? So it's having just, like Akasha mentioned, gear before, just the right amount of gear, and it's like a raincoat and some snacks and enough water. It's not anything fancy, but it's the right things. So we talk a lot about that. And then I also say that ask questions and trust your instincts. There are a lot of decision-making fallacies around, like the expert fallacy of, if you're following someone who has some experience, that they are not going to make any mistakes or they've thought of everything.
Vincent Boudreau
Right.
Ella Hartley
So I say, if you're out with a group of people, if you're out with a guide and you're curious about something, you're not sure, something looks a little sketchy, always say something. Anyone who's doing any kind of risk management in the backcountry, they'll either be able to answer your question really well, or you've caught something that they didn't notice. So just 'cause you don't have experience, doesn't mean your instincts aren't valuable. And the final thing I'll say, and kind of the phrase is, bailing is half of mountaineering. Most of the time-
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Ella Hartley
You don't get there, and that's okay. It's not worth your life, just like chalk it up to a good day hike and turn around and go home-
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Ella Hartley
And get warm, get cocoa, get your eye, all that.
Vincent Boudreau
So what's, I mean, give us one sort of specific skill or piece of advice that you deploy with first-time or inexperienced outdoor recreators.
Ella Hartley
So, one of my favorite things to teach about with new folks, is snake bites.
Vincent Boudreau
Okay.
Ella Hartley
And what to do or what not to do, because there's so much in the culture about, I mean, snakes are cool.
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Ella Hartley
And also the Wild Wild West vibe, there's a lot of... A lot of what not to do gets covered first. So I just want to let folks know that the demographic most likely to get bitten by a snake are men between the ages of 16 and 30.
Vincent Boudreau
Okay.
Ella Hartley
And they're most likely to be bitten on the hand.
Vincent Boudreau
'Cause they tried to pick it up.
Ella Hartley
Yes.
Vincent Boudreau
Okay.
Ella Hartley
So please, if your friend is taking a selfie with a snake, gets bitten, please don't try to catch the snake, don't try to kill the snake. You don't need a picture of the snake to bring... Please don't bring the snake itself to the emergency room. I'm saying on behalf of all ER medical providers, they can treat you and your friend well with the anti-venom they have, without knowing the exact type of snake that bit you. And that's how we just start that lesson. But please don't suck out the venom, please don't cut into the bite, please don't put a tourniquet on. There's so much out there in the culture that we need to kind of-
Vincent Boudreau
That's so funny.
Ella Hartley
Move away from.
Vincent Boudreau
I remember, actually, as a Boy Scout, one of the things you got was like a suction cup.
Ella Hartley
Snake bite kit.
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Ella Hartley
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
Snake bit kit that had a suction cup. Like the idea was that's what you've got to do, is, no, it's bad.
Ella Hartley
Nope.
Vincent Boudreau
And it starts with don't pick up the snake.
Ella Hartley
It starts with don't pick up the snake.
Vincent Boudreau
I have kind of another danger in the outdoors question.
Ella Hartley
Sure.
Vincent Boudreau
How has our impulse to take selfies contributed to outdoor danger?
Ella Hartley
Oh my goodness. Well, you hear horrid stories of people like at the Grand Canyon or other famous cliffs.
Vincent Boudreau
Or with a bear.
Ella Hartley
Going off the edge. Yes. Or someone trying to put their child on top of a buffalo or... They're wild animals, it's not Disney World out there, as beautiful as it is. I'd say anything that takes your attention away from your situational awareness is worth putting in your pocket for the day.
Vincent Boudreau
Okay. And we're going to abbreviate that, ladies and gentlemen, to, don't pick up the snake.
Ella Hartley
Please don't pick up the snake.
Vincent Boudreau
That's going to be the headline from the second half of today's show. You've had all these personal experiences and have had to use your outdoor rescue and medical skills as well. From that personal experience, what do you find most valuable in teaching New Yorkers about this world and this kind of activity?
Ella Hartley
What I stress with my students, is that these are important skills to have. And when we are using these skills, it's a bad day, we're not going out there expecting to have a medical emergency, even though we're ready for it. So my brother's an ER doctor, he's going into work expecting medical emergencies. For us, again, it's a bad day. So what I tell folks is, it's crucial to care for yourself, to care for your patients, to care for your group, to care for your friends, well after the incident itself. Stress injuries are totally normal, they're common in first responders, of which that's a family you become a part of, once you have the certification. There's no shame in them, they're very treatable, and you deserve support. So that's something I stress to all of my students as they get into become a medical provider.
Vincent Boudreau
And it's interesting that, I would imagine that most students embarking on a class in wilderness first aid or wilderness, don't think about themselves as joining a community of first responders, but that's what they're doing, right ? I think a lot of times, even in the conversations we've had here on campus, we talk about the movement of students like our City College students, mostly urban. And we talk about their entry into the outdoors from a perspective of the lack of experience, deficit, and you want to go there so you can build something that you don't already have. But what is it that you've seen in urban communities that constitute strengths and reserve of resilience in this kind of experience?
Ella Hartley
Yeah, I'm so grateful for that question, 'cause you're right, it's always a, "Oh, well, there's something else that you can gain from going into the outdoors," as if-
Vincent Boudreau
You don't have it.
Ella Hartley
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
yeah.
Ella Hartley
And as if the outdoor community doesn't gain dramatically.
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Ella Hartley
I mean, urban students are curious, they're adventurous, they're used to seeing lots of different people living their lives in lots of different ways, like just fine, on the daily. So they are really good at asking questions. They don't assume that there's only one way to do something, and so they'll question that, which shakes up what is otherwise can be a pretty stale culture out there.
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Ella Hartley
And they're great at making an outdoor expedition their own. Like every group develops its own culture around inside jokes and whatever you can do with the rations you've got and the food repair kit as, I'll call the spice kit, when I'm out there.
Vincent Boudreau
Oh, nice.
Ella Hartley
There's so much that urban students bring, both to their own experience and to the rest of our experiences out there. The folks who've been out there for a long time and need those fresh eyes.
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah. The way you talk about your students makes me curious just to, like what age group are we talking about? Who do you work with most commonly, and who do you like working with the most?
Ella Hartley
Yeah, I've worked with twelve-year-olds to like, I think my oldest student was 86.
Vincent Boudreau
Wow.
Ella Hartley
He smoked us, he was great. He was very strong. And I've worked with US military veterans, I've worked with groups of teenagers that are already kind of made and coming together, or strangers who are all being thrown into the mix. Right now, I primarily work teaching adults, mostly young adults, college age to maybe like 30 or so, that's the group that tends to work in outdoor education
Vincent Boudreau
And get snakebit .
Ella Hartley
Yeah, indeed. Everyone's prefrontal cortex is still kind of forming-
Vincent Boudreau
Right.
Ella Hartley
Until about 26 or so. But I think, do I have a favorite? I will say, like older teenagers are a hoot.
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Ella Hartley
Like 17, 18, and they're so much their own people, and they really want to figure things out for themselves. Like I'll work, of course, with twelve-year-olds, and if I never hear my name again after that week, it'll be too soon.
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Ella Hartley
But to work with people who are like, "Yeah, yeah, cool, I got it now," and basically work me out of a job by the end of the course, that's always fun.
Vincent Boudreau
I mean, in a way, the way you approach this work, I think is a real model for what we're trying to do at City College as well. I mean, the intersection of racial justice and outdoor access seems to be right at the very center of your approach to this stuff. But how does it inform the way you deliver a wilderness medical education to people?
Ella Hartley
Sure. So many different layers, but I'll give an example. When we talk about patient care, right, part of a primary assessment is taking vitals, heart rate, respiratory rate. There's a vital that we shorten to SCTM, which is skin color temperature, and moisture. Now, I've been teaching wilderness first aid courses since 2017, and when I first started teaching, and right, Maya Angelou says, "When you know better, do better." When I first started teaching, we'd look at our students and you'd go, "Okay, you're pink, warm, and dry," and we'd look at their cheeks. And most of my students were white, and it was very easy to look at their cheeks and go, "Okay, you're pink." So that's within normal limits, that's good vitals. What we have changed our curriculum to, and what I am fastidious about with my students, is we're not looking at cheeks, we're looking at mucous membranes. So the inside of someone's lip, the inside of their eye. We're looking at capillary refill on their fingernails. And regardless, so you can-
Vincent Boudreau
You pinch your fingernail, okay.
Ella Hartley
You pinch your fingernail, and you can see, when you let go, the blood has kind of drained out of the fingernail, and then you can see it come back in. And those are the ways that, regardless of how much melanin your patient has, you're going to give them good care by taking accurate vitals.
I then stress for folks who are working with youth, that everyone gets sun protection, melanin in your skin will give you some additional protection from the sun, but not enough, particularly if they're at high altitudes or they're outside like all day, every day in a way they're not used to. And folks with darker skin, while they're less likely to get skin cancer, given medical racism, they're more likely to die of skin cancer, because a lot of our medical practitioners, dermatologists are still trained primarily on what things look like on white skin, or on lighter skin. So if we can get that sun protection going when they're working with twelve-year-olds, right, they're less likely to face those barriers moving forward in their lives.
Vincent Boudreau
Oh, that's really interesting. Our project is about expanding access to the outdoors. Ad I mean, I wonder what you see after you've had a group come through your training, in terms of their sense of belonging, their sense of embrace of the outdoors. How does it change your students to go through one of your classes?
Ella Hartley
I think one of the biggest, well, not destoyers, one of the biggest tempers of fear, is knowledge. Especially when it comes to those big, powerful things in our world. So, like I'm terrified of the ocean, and there are people who will sail across it, because they know the rules.
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Ella Hartley
And they know how to respect it and also what to fear and what not to. And I find that when we can have these conversations of the things that could go wrong, and also give skills for how to support someone who's going through that or how to take care of someone. Then that powerful force of the great outdoors, whether it's the mountains, or rivers, becomes just a little more graspable and less scary, and you can start to kind of nibble on it, of like, "Okay, well, I don't know if I'm ready to climb Mount Washington yet."
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Ella Hartley
"But let's go out to Bear Mountain near Beacon and try that out." And then maybe they take the train out there and they hike a little bit and they're like, "You know what? Didn't bring enough snacks, don't have enough water. I don't know about this. These shoes aren't quite right." And they come back down and I'm like, "Try again the next weekend or -. "
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Ella Hartley
And you get just enough, and I will say it also, in these courses, it takes out what's been an informal process of mentorship that has also kept people out. It's been a gate-keeping process, intentionally and unintentionally, to doing things in the outdoors. So if you can take a course like this, some people are intrepid and will go out no matter what they know or not, and just give it a shot and learn by experience. And some of us need a little bit more information first. So this is for those folks who are aspiring outdoor people, who need a little bit more information first before they just roll on out there.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
I want to ask you kind of about looking back and looking forward in the lives and kind of histories of your students. I mean, Akasha said something I thought that was really interesting, about the students we have at City College. We have students from all over the world, many of whom may have had very familiar experiences with the outdoors, in Ecuador or Pakistan, or some other place in the world. And you think about our urban populations, and all you have to do is go back before the Great Migration, and in families there was real, deep experience with the natural world. And so many of our students at City College spend summers in South Carolina or Georgia. So there's that kind of transmission between urban families in the north and extended families in the south, that may be rural families.
So I wonder if that gets activated with your students? And then looking forward, and I don't know how connected you are to students after they take your class, if they come back, and you have a sense of their trajectory. But what changes in their lives? Do you see them kind of reorienting, or is it enough just that they've discovered a new way that they can go out and recreate and be at peace in the outside? That's a big question with a lot of moving parts, so take whatever part of it you want to talk about and tell me what you think.
Ella Hartley
Yeah. Okay. I want to start with just the environment of the Deep South .
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Ella Hartley
And that. And I have so much envy for folks who are hiking in Pakistan, it's so gorgeous, I'd so love to go there. But I digress. I think that everyone, I mean, in the United States alone, people are going to bring so much meaning, family meaning, cultural meaning, historical meaning, to their relationship with the outdoors.
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Ella Hartley
Religious meaning, spiritual meaning. That, for me, it's enough to kind of answer the end of your question, that they feel empowered at all to do more of what they want to do and to be outside and to maybe take other people outside. Often, I'll have people in my classes who are new parents, or have young children, and they want to bring their kids out there, but they want a little more knowledge to feel secure in that.
And then beyond that, I think Akasha mentioned kind of the advertising of diversity in the outdoors. And it can feel disingenuous because it's like, well, here's a Black or Brown or indigenous person in a scenario that is like super white, otherwise, culturally white. Like all that meaning is post World War II, like trekking in international parks, which may be great, and also may mean something different to different people. I'd say that people come at this from a lot of different places and then bring it out in a lot of different ways. I do know, I had one student who went on that same long hike in New Zealand, that I did the year after I taught her class. So that was like a one-to-one, which was fantastic. I don't tend to hear too much from folks afterwards, but a lot of outdoor educators who get their wilderness first aid, first responder, maybe their EMT, will go on to be nurses and search and rescue folks too, which is pretty cool to see. So a bit of a rambling answer for a-.
Vincent Boudreau
Well, it was a rambling question.
Ella Hartley
Large question.
Vincent Boudreau
So that's appropriate. So let me give you a focused one. So you're starting this great work with our outdoor club, we're super grateful to have you on board. What do you have in store for the students that you're going to be working with this year?
Ella Hartley
We are going to do just a classic two-day wilfa up at Harriman, I'm so excited to-.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
Hang on.
Ella Hartley
Head up there with y'all.
Vincent Boudreau
Wilfa?
Ella Hartley
A wilderness first-aid course.
Vincent Boudreau
Okay.
Ella Hartley
So that's a sixteen-hour training.
Vincent Boudreau
Okay.
Ella Hartley
Geared towards primarily recreators, and it'll give everyone the skills they need to respond to a sick or injured patient, to prevent the environmental illnesses and injuries we see. And also, a ton of hands-on practice, so folks are going to be taking vitals on everyone, we're going to do a bunch of scenarios. I train my students as if they're going to run across my mom on the trail.
Vincent Boudreau
What would that be like?
Ella Hartley
"Immaculately, I want to see perfect demos."
Vincent Boudreau
I got you.
Ella Hartley
"So, CPR, I want to see a beautiful patient assessment. I want you to get a perfect heart rate on me, and my heart skips." So that is the ideal, because I want them all to actually have the skills they feel they have at the end of this.
Vincent Boudreau
So let me ask you, you've given us little bits of advice and things to be careful about, and all the rest of it, but everybody listening to this program. I mean, there are people listening to this program that maybe never even thought about doing this kind of stuff. And so what would your advice be to somebody who's kind of on the threshold of maybe thinking about maybe they might like to do some of this stuff, maybe?
Ella Hartley
Yes.
Vincent Boudreau
Akasha, I'm going to ask you the same thing.
Ella Hartley
I was going to say, can we ask her too?
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Ella Hartley
Oh, well, I would say congratulations you live in New York City, where there is a group of totally rad people doing whatever activity you want to do, for free. I know Meetup has a bunch of hiking groups. There's also state parks around here and places where you can rent kayaks for free.
Vincent Boudreau
Right down the Hudson River and-
Ella Hartley
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
And under the Williamsburg Bridge, right?
Ella Hartley
Well, yeah, and on the East River near me. And then also, there's a state park right near Coney Island that I'm blanking on the name of right now. They also have free kayak rental all summer.
Akasha Solis
I didn't know that.
Ella Hartley
Yeah. So this is the place where if you have the slightest inkling of wanting to do anything, there's a group of people who's stoked to show you how to do it.
Vincent Boudreau
That's totally true. Akasha, what do you think? What would you say?
Akasha Solis
Oh my gosh. I guess I would say, to not be afraid, to not have impostor syndrome, or feel like this is not an opportunity for you. 'Cause I think a lot of people see things and they're like, "Oh, I can't do that. I don't know how to swim. I don't know how to Kayak." And I think, like Ella said, we are lucky to be in New York, because there's so much opportunity here. And you're right, Meetup, I'm always getting emails, it's like, "Hike here, hike here." And I'm like, "Oh my God," and it's every day. So there really is, you can do anything you want here, and someone is willing to teach you. So I think that's the biggest thing, is don't be afraid and don't feel like you can't do that thing.
Vincent Boudreau
Yeah.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
And I think also, in this city, know how accessible real outdoors is.
Akasha Solis
Right.
Vincent Boudreau
You can take Metro North to the Appalachian Trail. And so study those lines, because they go to some pretty fabulous places. I have a sister who used to run a shuttle bus from the train stop to Harriman Park, and her and her family just wanted to get people from New York up to Harriman. And then they would do a loop every hour, going where you could start hiking and where you'd come out of the woods.
Ella Hartley
That's fantastic.
Vincent Boudreau
It was good. So it's accessible and it's close and it's as close as Central Park and as accessible as Harriman and the Appalachian Trail.
Akasha Solis
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
I want to give you both an opportunity, you're both running super exciting organizations, so I want to give you an opportunity to pitch. If somebody wants to be involved in the Outdoor Club, Akasha, how do they do that?
Akasha Solis
So if you are a student, the Outdoors Club has a bunch of activities for you to do. I get emails pretty often from them, and they're always looking for new members, always looking for people to join. We have our annual trips every year. There's about four that you can join. Everybody is welcome, it doesn't matter what your background is, religion, sexuality, gender, we're accepting of everyone. It also doesn't matter about your skill level, we want everyone to feel welcome. And yeah, join us anytime. We would love to open up more programming, especially because our trips do fill up pretty fast, but we are always looking for new opportunities for people, and just excited to meet new people and see new bonds formed as well.
Vincent Boudreau
Is there a link on our website?
Akasha Solis
Yes. If you look up the Outdoors Project on CCNY, it will pop up. And I just updated the website, so all the information is up-to-date.
Vincent Boudreau
Ella, how about you? If someone is not part of the City College community, but they really want to get involved in some of the things you teach-
Ella Hartley
Yeah.
Vincent Boudreau
How would they find you?
Ella Hartley
So, wildernessfirstaidnyc.com .
Vincent Boudreau
Okay.
Ella Hartley
And Wilderness First Aid NYC on Instagram.
Vincent Boudreau
Okay.
Ella Hartley
We have a course open to the public in the beginning of August, August 2nd and 3rd, at Brooklyn Commons, which is this really cool historical space near Prospect Park. And there'll be a couple other courses coming up this fall in September and October. That's how to get involved with any of the wilderness first aid or wilderness medicine. And then, the other piece I'll plug is the Green Wood & Duff, which is not a cheap law firm, although it sounds like that. It's a forest metaphor.
Vincent Boudreau
Okay.
Ella Hartley
Green Wood being the flexible new growth, and Duff being the compost and like florist floor.
Vincent Boudreau
Oh.
Ella Hartley
And if you're interested in that combination of racial justice and outdoor education, greenwoodandduff.com is where you can find more information on that.
Vincent Boudreau
That's fantastic. Folks, it is summertime, it is a big, beautiful world, it is for everybody. But if you're going to go out there, be safe, learn the skills you need to navigate that world, and it's not going to take much, and we will help you get there. Thank you for listening to From City to the World. Special thanks to our guests, CCNY special project manager and co-lead of the CCNY Outdoor Project, Akasha Solis, and Ella Hartley, who is the instructor for Outward Bound and is now also working with the CCNY Outdoor Project on wilderness first aid and survival skills.
The show was produced by Tiffanie Burt. Have fun, everybody, be safe, enjoy the summer. And thank you both for a really great conversation. Bye folks.